Passport Control.

I'm off skiing today, inshallah! My dear brother has got himself a flat in the Alps so I baggsied this weekend. However, my passport expired in July and I still hadn't got round to renewing it until three days ago. Now why on earth would I leave it that long?
Procrastination.
Not an endearing quality or a particularly Islamic one. I guess the ideal characteristic of a Muslim in this regard would fall somewhere between not being hasty (haste as we all know is from Shaitaan) and not procrastinating. All I can remember in regards to this is an advice that I remember being related to Umar, (raa) "Don't delay today what you might not be able to do tomorrow."
Now I have to admit, and I'll try not to get too gushing in these days when we as a nation are involved in some fairly atrocious matters as my ultra-radical friends will remind me...but, no, I do have to admit (reluctant radical sighs) its just one of those brilliant things about the UK! Now, I don't know about anywhere else, but how many places can you get your passport renewed in four hours! Not many Muslim counties that's for sure. Oh how easy "living the life" is made here.
Well anyway that's what they guarantee. Fours hours.
It didn't quite happen that way with me. I was of course half expecting it. Moi, "the Radical", having been stopped a couple of times, and most probably am on a watch list, was expecting some delay/interview/refusal.
When I met my brother last night to get the keys for the flat where we are skiing he wondered why they wouldn't give you, a British citizen a passport. Well exactly! And in fact I have done nothing wrong at all, I think! Still, it's really about perceptions. What was commendable years ago could be a crime today and vica verca. Well in the end, I didn't get my passport four hours later, because "there was something about my file! I'm really sorry! I'm sure you'll get it before you travel."
Well I did. The next day actually. Which is still pretty good.
My advice if you need to renew your passport is just prepare your self a little. It only takes a few weeks by post, and is so incredibly easy to renew a passport. I had this image of form after form, documents which I'd have to dig out etc..etc...It was making me ill just thinking about it! But in the end, it was all in my mind. If I'd realised it was that simple I'd have done months ago. Oh, another thing, it'll also save you about £50. A same day renewal costs around £110.
Now, I don't won't to leave this on toooo positive a note, because I have been thinking why do we need passports anyway? Hey, and boarders and countries for that matter! I mean really! I don't remember reading in the travels of ibn Battuta or students in search of ilm anything about passports and boarder controlls!OK maybe a bandit here and there, but subhanallah, imagine being able to travel from one end of the world to the other without any of that! And they complain that we want a Khalifa! Well that of course is another story! Better stop now before I get too radical. My God, I might even suggest that we Muslims need to rule ourselves so that people stop killing us! I mean how radical can you get? What's wrong with letting yourself get slaughtered here and there? I mean whatever next?
They got a de-tox diet, I think I need a de-radical diet.
Ah, what better that a nice week of X-treme skiing? Oh dear, there I go again. Just can't get away from it.
Gosh I think I'll never loose this extremist radical fundamentalist mind set!

Comments

[Fatima Barkatulla (Umm Yusuf)]

What is skiing like for Muslim women? I mean is it something women could do and preserve their hijab? I heard about a all year round artificial skiing resort in Dubai. Is there a link to a good skiing resort you can recommend?

ARGcomment: This rather depends on the defenition of hijab, or how far you think it should be taken. If you are of the opinion that the purest form of hijab means to stay well within the confines of home and not to leave it unless absolutuly necessary, then of course I have no defense for Muslim women skiing, even on a mountain with only other Muslim women.
However if we take the position, as I think you do, that there are lawful forms of entertainment, even if this means a limited amount of intemixing (theme parks, shopping, walks, hill climbing etc..) then skiing in my opinion has to be one of the most halal that there is.
Firstly, forget about Muslim women, nearly everybody, men and women are more covered up on the slopes than just about anywhere else!
When my wife went two years ago she got a big padded jacket, baggy trousers and a balaclava. She raised her jilbab (worn under the ski jacket) to just below the knees. All of this effectivly preserved the essential requirements of the full jibab/niqab. I could barely tell the difference! In fact her ski insturctor sent a design of an even better purpose-built skiing jilbaab that she can get made up. Now the only concern is making a bit of fool of yourself falling over, as one inevitably will, or not being able to stop and having your husband (presuming he can) having to ski after you to rescue you causing great amusement to gathered spectators.
There are plenty of women ski instructors and even women only groups you can join in some resorts.
Skiing is a very active sport. Mordern skis and equipment have gone some way to make it a lot less athletically demanding, but you still need a good amount of core (abs) and leg strength. Nothing a few daily exercises a couple of months befor can't sort out though.
I've never liked dry slope skiing, but it is often touted as a good way to start. AlternativlyThere are "real" snow indoor slopes in UK, (Milton Kynes and Sheffield) just a bit closer than Dubai! I've heard there's a great dry slope near Braknell with a new type of material that is supposed to be good. I'm thinking of taking some of the kids down one Saturday/Sunday to give it a try.
To conclude skiing is an active sport, and there are those who will wonder how exactly something like that can ever conform to hijab. In terms of dress its not an issue. As for the rest it is really up to you! Once you take the kids and join them and see how much fun you are all having and how well dressed everyone else is..well I recon its about as halal as you can get! But really I encourage anyone to make the effort to take the kids. As long as they are over 5 generally they will just love it, and its an amaxing experience.
Anyway I've planned a trip this half term for the family and a few other Muslim families are coming along, so inshallah you'll hear all about it here on islamsgreen. If its a success, inshallah, we'll organise a bigger event for next year.

[AnonyMouse]

As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,

*Falls over laughing*
That’s just too funny!!!!!! You actually sound a bit like my dad now… he *hates* all the ridiculous stuff that needs to be done before traveling, and it’s worse for him because since his little ‘incident’ with the moronic media, things are always a zillion times harder for him, and he’s definitely on the watchlist thingy… What makes him angrier is that he almost got a job in Saudi (his dream job – translating books from Arabic into English), and it was just up to the dudes at the consulate or whatever… and they wouldn’t let him go!
So now whenever someone mentions the word ‘passport’ he gets red in the face and starts ranting against the moronic media and even dumber government… lol… :P

Anyway, have fun skiing, insha’Allah! Do some Xtreme radical tricks on behalf of my dad and I… ;) :P

Your little sister in Islam,
‘Mouse

[m.mahmud]

excellent as usual. please keep them coming.

[iMuslim]

Salaams ARG,

Jazakallah for this article. I love reading your blog as i get to see the 'other side' of all the media frenzy around certain members of the learned Muslim community, who are often misquoted in order to generate headlines.

I pray you enjoy your ski trip. Can one ski in a thobe? And what about wiping over ski boots? Is the wudhu valid? hehe

Wa'salam

ARGcomment: More about burkaski and the the fiq in upcoming posts inshallah!

[Abu Maryam]

as-salamu'alaykum
By the way, as you probably seen - new passports are all microchipped now....
Wouldn't you say that the UK is literally a police state now - and "reactionary/extreme" Muslims (mainstream) are number one on the wanted list?
It does not matter that they may be the world's most organised passport reproducers in the world or best managed nation in the world - the reality is that they are not only actively promoting their values of secularism through their da'wah but they admit to fighting physically for it too, yes there "jihad"! So what is so amazing about this British society and in particular its values when it comes at the expense of literally the blood of Muslims and the devaluing of Islamic principles and heritage!?
I would rather the disorganised rabble, that is the state of the Muslims in Muslim countries, where at least the attachment to Islam and the love of Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhe wa salam is professed. I think we have become deluded to what are the real markers of a healthy society...
wallahu alam
wa'alaykum as salam
Abu Maryam

ARGcommnet: I wouldn't mind those hustle bustle societies so much either if there was this love of Islam. But seriously, where is it?
It seems to me that country after country, family after family, individual after individual are coming under the sway of wahan, love of the dunya.
Please direct me/us towards this place where the love of Islam is professed. Which one of these Muslim countries is not actively involved in arresting, imprisoning, torturing these very Muslims that you are talking about.
Subhanallah, just the other day I met a brother who has been out of UK for 9 years, and was arrested in Yemen and kept in solitary confinement for months. He said they treated dogs better, and you know how arabs treat dogs! The prison commander used to be in first row of the masjid where the brother prayed and was his neighbour!
Ask anyone who has been subjected to even basic prison in most Muslim countries if they would prefer that or Guantanamo...
If you want to find people who profess the love of the Prophet and Isalm, you can find them right here in UK too, and in many cases a lot more free to do it than in many Muslim countries.
I think the "re-assesment" that needs to be done is what constitutes Islam and an islamic socieity!
What Islam is it without basic respect for fundamental human rights?
Remeber the hadith about the woman who used to pray a lot of extra prayers and fasts but had and evil tounge? The Prophet was asked about her and he said that she was a person of the hell fire! So how about those who meet out abuse and violence?
Balance and justice and fairness is what we need, to everyone!
If the non Muslims have something good we should recognise it!
That is justice.
Don't let your hatred of a people cause you do injustice.

[Zimarina]

Oh my God ArG- that entry was too funny, you sound like you're muttering to yourself after waking up on a Sunday morning and stubbing your toe into the door (have you ever done that by the way? The pain is unreal)..

I wouldn't call it hasty as much as efficient getting all this passport-renewal stuff done pronto...I managed to renew my passport before it even expired so for a period of a magical 10 days I had 2 passports (ofcourse one was cut and technically 'unusable') but the dates correlated well. And forget £100, I think the 50/60 I paid was extortionate- biometric or not. Does yours have that ugly picture of that bird on it? It's blue and positioned so it's beak looks like it's about to peck your head in the picture? I was EXTREME-ly let down by the aesthetics of it all..artwork needs a RADICAL shake up for sure..

ARGcomment: yea, what is is it with those crusty birds anyway!

[Umber]

Skiing cool sounds fun insha'Allah Id love to give it a go some day! As your on the topic of travelling and sort of on the British system I thought Id mention a couple things! I went to Italy last week for a few days with my husband and although alhamdulillah we had a really lovely time my short stay there really made me appreciate the UK. Now I know ill get alot of cringes and huh! and how can she say that from alot of fellow Muslims but its true I really do appreciate the UK mainly for the fact on how hospitable it is in terms of me following Islam! Let me briefly explain! While in Italy we were in Milan and Venice although it was nice break it was so unfortunate that while out an about the whole day we would make trips half way through the day to pray back at the hotel. Dont get me wrong it was not unfortunate that we had to pray the unfortunate thing was that there were no masjids anywhere in venice at all! Subhana'Allah I thought to myself what about the muslims who live here how do they cope what about Ramadan, Taraweeh, Jummah, Eid Salah???? The answer is that for all these things if you lived there in venice you would have to travel roughly an hour away to another small island where there is a bigger muslim population there for they have made a place for prayer. Its so easy here on London the Capital masjids every where masha'Allah even in central London we have Baker St, we have goodge st then if you shopping in oxford st not to far away infact walkiing distance is the may fair masjid and so many more all over the place Allahu Akbar Allah has eased the way for us in this regard!
Then although I love fish and veg that was the only thing to eat, no halal butchers at all and we managed to find just one take away pizza place which served halal doner but not any type of halal pizza! Here in the UK it seems the halal butchers have taken over the rest and alhamdulillah the halal restaurants are numerous masha'Allah! Oh yes by the way all the restaurants and even small cafes there serve alcohol and usually have a huge open bar type thing which is not ideal for any of us who wish to relax or have a meal out!
Milan was slightly more hospitable if you can call it that! We searched on the net for masjids there and found 2 which were sort of in central milan so we went on teh look for them! The 1st one we arrived at the destination only to find that there was no longer a masjid there! Alhamdulillah I managed to spot a sister in a hijab which again is somewhat of a rarety! I tried to communicate with her as she spoke Italian and me English but alhamdulillah we united by Islam we both understood the salaam and of course the word 'MASJID'. She started to direct me and then in the end walked us both half way there! Then she said keep walking straight (this was the address of the 2nd masjid we had). Subhana'Allah we walked and walked and walked and walked even further which is not easy when your 5 months pregnant and finally we arrived at the destination! Instead of being welcomed by a big dome we were welcomed by what looked like a ramp leading up to a car park?!?!?!? Anyways wiery and tired we walked up the ramp and found a small hut type thing with 2 doors one for sisters and one for brothers! Alhamdulillah we found the masjid! Again it made me wonder in this area this was it this tiny little room was their masjid what about taraweeh ramadan jummah eid!
Then I thought hmm maybe Ive just been cushioned being born and bought up in the uk where literally I have a masjid at my every beck and call alhamdulillah! Masjids which you can recognise as a masjid masha'Allah, big enough to not only hold a handful but hundereds. Ramadan comes and many of us are spoilt for choice some of us even call it masjid hoping visiting a different one each night enjoying the recitaion letting the sound of the Quran enter our hearts!
Walking the streets here neary every corner we turn we see a recognisable muslim either brothers with their beards or sisters in hijab so we can share salaams there honestly I think I must have seen a couple of recognisable Muslims!
We all like to complain alot about the gov here and of course there are many things which im not happy about and wish I could change or would change but as for the daily life of a muslim I say alhamdulillah im here where to a large extent I can practise my deen with ease! I make dua for us all here in teh UK that Allah makes our Islam grow even more and makes out life here even more hospitable and I make dua for the muslims around the world where their lives even in some muslim countries are not so easy ameen!
ARGcomment: Man, Italy! You have like thousands of vegie pasta dishes, ice cream and veggie pizza. We need to eat less meat anyway! Still, its true, there are real Muslim communities here in UK. The only think is it scares me a little. Jews were pretty comfortable in Germany befor the Holocaust!
Mashallah, congrats on the forthcoming little one. Keep up the walking though, its good exercise when your are pregnant and inshallah being in good shape will help when delivery day comes. You have to be on your feet and ready to run when that big Stalk comes flying in. There so busy these day, and don't have that many deliveries in Europe so it just like "quick, catch! I have to get to Bangladesh!"

[Umber]

Yes its true many many vegie dishes and yummy pizza which are all so fresh and tasty and all that is good for a while but as in living there no way every day being like that no meat at all! The meat wasnt my main concern though it was the lack of masjids and Its true what you say about the Holocaust I often do think about that too and keep maing duas that our communities carry on growing here and do not deteriorate any further!
Jazaka'Allahu Khayr yeah your right about the walking I keep reading that every where how walking helps when the big day arrives... I manage to get my fair share of running around looking after my year and half old nephew during the day all week and then still at the book shop on mondays! Although I do feel so much lazier now than I have ever felt before in my life... I used to be always running around every where now I cant wait to sit down and just be lazy but still I do try! Please do keep us in your duas that everything goes well and baby is healthy insha'Allah! Try popping by the shop on a monday sometime!

[Shabber]

assalamalakum,

What a world we live in.... In Dubai we go inside and put warm clothes on to stay warm from the air conditioning and if we go sking in Dubai (by the way its a fresh snow environment they have some machine which produces fresh snow) we have to wear those warm puffy jackets and bottoms, then when we leave we go out side and say...aaaahhhh thats nice and warm now, in the Alps you put on all the warm clothes to go out side and stay warm, and then come back inside and say..aaaahhhh, thas nice and warm inside.....

and then we have a Bush ruling the world support by Rice and Germany refuses to enter a war (Iraq) what a world we live in... what's going on?

and

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/99633.html

"A new Danish translation of the Koran has been snapped up from bookstores' shelves, joining the ties, toasters and toys wrapped and waiting to be opened Christmas Eve.
In the first month since its release, nearly half of the 10,000 copies available have been sold, sending philologist Ellen Wulff's translation to number two on the non-fiction list."

That's right draw your cartoons, but who has the last laugh.. :)

then of course....

The Independant reported that one of the effects of global warming will be no snow in the Alps, so enjoy it while its still there....

Shabber.

[Abu Maryam]

as-salamu'alaykum

I totally disagree - in fact it is a major injustice in not recognising the fadl of Muslim countries and their communities and societies above western countries, in particular the UK.

In fact, we should not let our disappointment of the Muslim people's apathy in the face of the injustices occurring in the world be a cause of being unjust.

Subhanallah, it is not that the world is made of two prisons, you are either in the prison of the west or in the prison's in the Muslim lands?? The vast majority, the masses of Muslims in UK and the Muslim lands are not in prison and are free to carry out their lives. It is very much debatable which lands suffer more of the love of this dunya and the hatred of death, and it can be argued either way. There is no wholesale arresting and torturing of average Muslims and certainly not of people who are calling for revolution, and the reality is that even in the "just" society of UK it is no longer tolerated that Muslim's can speak "revolutionary" words against the establishment without being targeted and arrested.

So if we want to be just in weighing up the "societies", then lets base it on community matters, socially accepted and rejected standards and Islamic principles and then judge which society is more conducive to a better Islamic environment for the individual, his family and Islamic community.

You do not get advertising on mainstream TV reminding people to go to the Masajid for Salah, or reminding the youth about the reality of death, or about backbiting, about treating your parents well. (Just check YouTube there are a plethora of these adverts now posted online, for those who do not have access to NileSat or ArabSat or alMajd in the UK). The concept of car insurance is an amazing example - Can you imagine being involved in a minor accident in Saudi Arabia, in which the Policeman will ask perhaps the richer of the two parties involved or the more relgious of the two, or even both - to forgive each other and forego any subsequent payments and expect the reward in the akhirah?! Masha'Allah! And no, that isn't a one-off its a standard policy. It is inherently an Islamic principle, the principle of Mercy and forgiveness - something which the UK car insurance destroys, going to the extent that the slightest mark /dent results in higher insurance premiums, or cars being deemed right-offs. There are many more examples of certain standards a Muslim society holds in comparison to UK society - that is besides the issue of the prevalence of kufr and its active propagation the general masses in UK.

And there is a change in Muslim thought in the Muslim lands and if the Muslim's have not realised this, the disbelievers have realised, and that is just one of the reasons why they are more intensely fighting physically and ideologically in these lands. Plus there are many other topics you can discuss and propagate in these Muslim societies which cannot be mentioned in the free and open society of UK in particular in this day and age.

As I do recall, Shaykh Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, in fact he said it while sitting in your (ARG) present garden: "Since I became Muslim many many years ago, I have never lived in non-Muslim lands" Having lived in Saudi Arabia, Emirates and now Qatar, his da'wah to western Muslims is very strong and he doesn't live in UK.

Allahu Alam.

ARGcomment: For sure everything is not black and white in regards to this matter and it is naive, unhelpful and counterproductive to make it out like it is. That's my main issue about your first comment.
Mashallah, long response with lots of useful points and anecdotes that almost totally failed to adress my actual question.
Bilal's dawa in the UK is almost completely to Muslims, and if there were not Muslims living, working and striving here, he would probably have no dawa at all in this country.
Who would invite him? And organise his lectures?
Channel 4?

[Abu Maryam]

as-salamu'alaykum

I will keep this response short this time. :)
It is unfortunate that my previous response did not address your actual question. Is the question, Where in the world is there this love of Islam and the disease of Wahn not prevalent?
Plenty of places, in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Egypt, Qatar, Yemen - the lists quite long, yes there are the city centres and places which are westernised but that is looking at these places at face value. There are cities and regions in all these places where there is a deep conviction for Islam and a dislikening to those who keep the dunya in their hearts - if it was not then why are people in their 1000's travelling from these places for the "Struggle" of Islam, as the Western media highlights.

My point in my previous response highlighted that it is unfair if not ridiculous to paint a picture as if the life of a Muslim is either in a western jail or a jail in the Muslim lands. The vast majority of Muslims in the west and in the Muslim lands are not incarcerated and hence this does not apply to them.

Shk Bilal's book "Fundamental's of Tawheed" is an almost standard hand book for New Muslims who convert to Islam. His lectures, his books have effected and are effecting many many New Muslims or those on the verge of becoming Muslim. No doubt there should be Muslims in this country in giving da'wah to Non-Muslims - but then are there not conditions for the Muslim to give da'wah? The vast majority do not have these conditions. And a huge proportion of Muslims who live, work and strive in the UK have more da'wah given to them by the West than they give out to the West.

Allahu Alam

was-salamu'alaykum
Abu Maryam

Hmmm, I guess that was another long comment :)

ARGcomment: I'm sorry that's just rubbish! I never painted such a picture as you claim. You are the one making niave simplistic caricatures of the "corrupt West" and pure "in love with Allah and His Messenger" Muslims lands. I think my article was in fact a fairly complex mixture of points, giving credit where it was due and criticism where it was due.
If there are problems for Muslims in the West there are problems for Muslims in Muslim lands.
If thousands go to Muslim lands, hundreds of thousands come to the west and a very good number are fleeing from the most brutal and terrible persecution there!
The picture I painted of Muslims lands was one of inefficiency, unnecessary beuraucracy (lets add while I'm at it) open corruption and bribery. You example of a police officer negotiating with people involved in an accident as a means to avoid insurance....I mean seriously!!!! You are telling me that is the NORM in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Yemen. Even Suadi!!
Are you seriously telling me that you have the same freedom to openly criticise the government, their policies and call for complete adhearance to Islam in any of those aformentioned countries like you are here??!!!
Your response is that "well its getting like that in UK."
Oh please!
I have been to Saudi, Emirates, Pakistan, Malaysia. I've lived in Egypt for years (admitedly as a non Muslim.) So I have some idea of what things are like! And from what i hear from some of these palces things are getting worse not better.
The point is that we need to stop having simplistic or delusional ideas about Muslim lands or these lands, or in fact anything.
If you prefer the chaos with the love of Allah and His Messenger (if that's what the reality is) well please go!
Hey I might even join you!
Oh yea, and just to repeat myself, Bilals book is "standard" because people living in the West and giving Dawa here pushed it out! No Muslims in the West, no Dawa in the West.

[iMuslim]

Salaams,

Hmm, this conversation between Abu Maryam and ARG is hotting up! Calm down, lads. I think some great points have been highlighted. My own views are a hodge-podge of both of yours.

I feel that on an individual level, the Muslim lands have the edge, because their communities have taken Islam as a culture, and the majority of citizens have some working knowledge of Islam. It is probably a lot easier to practise for those who wish to, just because, as i said, it is a cultural norm to pray and fast, and there will be mosques everywhere, in shopping malls and ice-rinks etc.

However, from a political and governmental point of view, the West almost certainly wins hands down. Things are changing, but there are many groups, both liberals and conseratives, Muslim, Christian and atheist, who are actively working against proposals to allow government to get any "bigger". No land is ideal in its government, but the UK's is certainly more tolerant, and more accountable to the people.

What does this mean for me? Well, personally i would love to bring my children up in a Muslim land, where the fitnah will perhaps be less, and they can be surrounded by a culture that embraces Islam, even if it is not in full.

Then again... growing up in the UK is not the worst thing for a Muslim child. As long as their parents instill Islamic values in them from the earliest age, so they are well equipped to know right from wrong. Also, i like the idea of them growing up with non-Muslims so that perhaps they can act as a guide for their peers, to help deter them from the path of misguidance that so many children are falling into these days, whatever the creed of their parents.

Either way, it doesn't matter what land you live in, if you want you and your family to practise Islam, you have to put the effort in yourself. I imagine there are plenty of "hypocrites" in Muslim lands, who are simply going through motions, because Islam is nothing more than a culture to them. The same can be seen in the UK, especially with the younger generation, who lack any kind of Islamic support from both their parents and peers.

So, no clear cut answers other than, if you want the job done, do it yourself - don't rely too heavily on your environment; just on Allah.

Wa'salam

P.S., sorry for rambling on!

ARGcomment: All this is true, mashallah! I have thought hundreds of times of moving to a Muslim land, for some of the same reasons that Abu Mariam has mentioned. The important thing here is that this discussion has highlighted is one of the major issues that I have been wanting to raise and create awareness of.
I think that sometimes we as Muslims have a one sided, unbalanced idea of what morality and fitna constitutes.
Usually we equate fitna almost entirely with open sexuality, drugs and drink. Alot of Asian Muslims think that pubs, yobs, extramarrital sex, homosexuality (or at least tolerance of it) fish and chips and football represent "British" culture. They/we dream wistfully of how good it was/is "back home" and how free we and our children were from all those terrible things. Now I'm not denying that. Although some of these things exist in Muslims lands it is hidden, bar football, and generally considered "shameful".
But how about other aspects of morality and fitna?
Take bribary and corruption. These things are generally open and enforced and almost unavoidable in most Muslim lands. I'm not saying bribary doesn't exist here in UK, but by and large it is hidden and considered shameful.
I could continue...treament of women, animals, child labour, torture, religious/political persecution, lack of respect for the rule of law, equity in the justice system.
It is ESSENTIAL to realise that some of these matters, especially equity in justice, are essential to the successful running of any society.
Allah supports a just nation even if it is kaafir over the unjust nation even if it believing. This is the sunnah of Allah.
It just makes me a bit angry when Muslims (unjustly) refuse to acknowledge these things.
Allah tell us that we should not let our hatred of a people to cause us to do injustice.
The other issue is, if we don't wake up and acknowledge our mistakes and deficienties we will never change/ improve, and we'll remain in our state of weakness.

[Abu Maryam]

as-salamu'alaykum wa rahmatullah

What's a little discussion on the blog? - gives it life ;)

Justice my point exactly...
I have lived and grown up all my life in the UK. I have been educated and graduated from the amongst the best institutions in this country, my parents, Jazakallahum Khayran, put a large emphasis on their children's education. Something which they realised was not available after a certain age to a certain level in many Muslim countries. I acknowledge and accept the many things the UK has to offer and has offered. But inherent in the hotbed of secular society is the da'wah they give in 1001 not just 101 different ways to the citizens of this country, and that da'wah is in direct conflict with the teachings that Islam brings to humanity.

Yes, there are reasons that Allah has put these nations above the Muslim nations and that is a lesson for us all, to recognise that calamities that fall upon us are partly a result of the sins that we are doing in general. But, is that where the lesson ends? Recognition of everything that is wrong with Muslim society and how equitable Western society is in comparison. To make us angry at why the Muslims are so weak? Is this where it ends? Or is the key that there be a positive reaction to this recognition - i.e changing the Muslim society?

I am sorry but your experience as a Non-Muslim in those countries must have been very different and perhaps those "many" years ago :), Muslim society was very much estranged from true Islam. I am currently staying in Saudi Arabia and just today my Uncle dropped his mobile phone on the street. I gave his mobile a call, a 12 yr old kid with his friends answered and asked us to meet them at a local restaurant in about 10 minutes. We did and the kid handed the phone over. So you don't have to believe these things happen in these places and nor do I, I actually see it happening on a daily basis. The society may have problems but its moral integrity is a million times that of the UK - In the UK, the phone would not be around, it would have been turned off, sim card out and probably sold on the loot the following week or on ebay as a blocked phone cheap and that would have been done by an adult!...Fact.

I am sorry but it gets me annoyed that there is such a simplistic view of what Muslim lands are like, frankly its easy to be like that living in the relative splendour and ease, where even if you don't work you get paid by the state (even though they have taxed, yourself, your family and community over 50% of their earned wealth) - oh yes, the concept of "queueing up" is then so easily used as a beating stick whilst we sip our cups of 'chai' in the west. Yes and the fact that the fasaad (evil) is hidden in Muslim countries is a good thing, when it becomes open the evil it has far reaching consequences and is a sign of the day of Judgement. Note, even at the time of Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhe wa salam, in the city of Madina which he was in control of, there were munafiqoon and there were thieves, adulterers, prostitution etc. This is something that exists in society, in Muslim society it is hidden and it is much more limited than in the west, that is something which is well known. Ask a brother teaching in a mainstream school at Primary and Secondary levels and ask him about his tutor groups report and how many girls from the age of 11 yrs are pregnant or have been pregnant. It is a norm, you can deny that as much as you want - UK has the worst teen pregnancy rate in Europe.

So returning to my main point, what does the recognition of the failures in Muslim society mean? Let's all discuss how bad Muslim society is and how Secular societies of the west are so much better?! Nope, it is to change Muslim society, Muslim communities, by teaching them how to queue up! By setting up a society for the protection of animals, environmental aspects etc etc. Yes, we can learn things from the west but its what you do with what you learn. Oh, but some believe we should live, work and strive in the west to teach them Islam whilst helping to strengthen their society further, with your wealth, your properties assets, intellectual abilities etc. How many brothers and sisters who become doctors end up moving back to their Muslim homelands or Muslim lands and set up clinics or join practices and return what they gained to their Muslim brothers? Very few unfortunately and certainly not with the above attitude...

Yes, some people should be in the UK to give da'wah to the Non-Muslims. But the average Abdullah and Amatullah? By the way you never answered what the conditions for giving da'wah are... In fact, to be honest Shaykh Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips has probably effected more people than most of the duaat in the UK through his books, lectures online etc over the years. Oh and whether his only invite is by C4, well I think that's quite a sad way to look at the matter - the reality is much of what was taken from these people's lectures (all of which are now under Scotland Yard investigation and restrictions) has been said by probably every duaat at one stage or the other, I just think back to the OCAMTI videos - Da'wah in the Park series part 5 - "Dingleberries" ;). You are no longer free to preach Islam or practise as you want in UK - some scaremongering, threats and not even any new laws drafted and sisters are wholesale removing their Niqaabs and who can blame them when daa'iyat are amongst the first to remove them! May Allah make it easy for the Muslims in the UK. Amin.

I am sure you have listened to countless radio call ins, each morning in the UK, how many times have you heard a brother and sister really make a total bodge up and worsen the situation? Almost always, they just don't possess the knowledge required to deal with the matter appropriately and often fall into the trap and say something contrary to Islam in the heat of the moment! If there were a select few people, who are briefed,experienced and under some guidance who were organised in tackling these radio stations on a daily basis, it would be far more effective in displaying true Islam. But asking brothers and sisters to call in because they are incensed at what they are hearing is exactly what these Secular Radio channels want! Unfortunately, ignorance amongst Muslims is a UK problem too and they end up being fuel for "their" da'wah.

If we take this to an Islamic perspective on Hijrah and the permissibility of staying in Non-Muslim lands then I think the case is pretty much closed for most Muslims residing here.

Don't get me wrong this isn't an argumentative discussion, I hope! There is benefit Insha'Allah.

Allahu Alam

was-salamu'alaykum
Abu Maryam

ARGcomment: hmmm, i get this feeling of going round and round on a merry go round!
Anyway a response to this above essay would take more time than i can spare, and I'm just going to end up repeating myself which is a shame.
Bro, if you really need to pat yourself on the back for fleeing from the jihad of dawa here in the West well here's a pat, pat, pat from me!
However I just remember the words of Sh Mohammed ibn Ismaeal to me "you being here in these lands calling the people to Islam is better than praying every day all day in the Kaba!"

Ya ikhwatu'l hijra fi balad ul haramain
while you relax with your thowb
and air conditioned brain
my mind is hot with the thoughts
of defending and upholding Allah's deen
and extending the reach of Islams realm!

Constructive discussion and attempts at finding the truth does not come from using the weakest points in a person's argument and then highlighting them as the main thrust of an argument. You have obviously lernt media tricks well from your days in the West! In fact your comment is replete with hyperpole and exagerations. Still, it makes quite amusing reading in a tabliod sort of way!
I'm so gald your got you phone back!
Saudi Arabia simply cannot be used as an evidence for what goes on in all muslim lands, although while you'r at it please explain how in Saudi 40 years ago you would hardly find a single women wothout niqab, now you find many! It seems that niqab is not only being abandoned in the West, its abandonment is increasingly common in Saudi itself!
I have been to quite a few Muslim lands SINCE i have become Muslim also, and quite recently. My observations are not old, and they are confirmed by the many I meet and talk to here in UK. In fact many of the reports I get are that matters are getting worse not better!
Anyway, your obsession with matters like niab, mobile phones and car accidents and...queing?!!!?...just further illustrates my point! Do you realy think these are the major moral issues?
I disagree with what you said about Bilal, actaully with all respect, its absurd...and reiterate a simple logical fact that seems lost in your outflowing of emotion, that if there were no Muslims in the West he would have virtually NO dawa in the West. Anyway, you are of course entitled to your opinion. Another habit obviously gleaned from being raised in the West :)
As for hijra..hmmm the "islamic position"..closed!
Where have I heard this type of "my opinion is the right opinion and there isn't another valid one" before?
Supersalafisize me anyone!
According the esteemed late sh. ibn Bazz (ra) as long as you can fulfill the basic Islamic obligations and are free to openly critisize the system ( which we are still are, dispite your attempts to indicate otherwise) you are free to dwell in these lands.
Wether staying here is a good idea for muslims or not....well for me the jury is still out. At least one brother I was speaking to seriously thinks that at the present rate of conversions UK is well on its way to becoming an Anglo Saxon Islamic Sate. OK,ok...you can stop laughing now..hey we should be optimistic! One thing is for sure. There are 2 million muslims in UK. They ain't making hijra any time soon. Its a fact, as Dr Bilal always used point out, so what we need to do is build communities here. I can't see that happening if every able bodied seaman jumps ship!

[Fatima Barkatulla]

One thing I definitely lament is the loss in quality of my Ramadan since I've been back in the UK after living in Egypt as a teenager for two years. Qiyamul layl in Egypt was easy....we used to rush to the masjid and a group of women would stay there till fajr...it was natural and our Iman was on an all time high. The Imaam would recite with such feeling and cry with such emotion and bring us all to tears. We used to be invited by Egyptians to their houses for iftar and have expat iftar parties....

In the UK...Ibaadah is a struggle in comparison....that was just a quick comment as I have very little time..
Fatima

[Shabber]

Mashallah, a lot of view-points, its a bit late but I'll add my view-point on it, for someone from the west living in the UAE.

To me it seems everyone is on the same wave length but at different points. May by I sometimes think of things to logical, my background is IT, but that’s something that attracted me to start practicing Islam, the logic, common sense and natural disposition of Islam.

For me I like to look at the end product, or final destination, for us all, its to go back home to jannah. We all know what we must do to get there, so I look at certain people who I feel, from my limited knowledge act as the people of paradise, just like the hadith quick summary: When the Prophet(saw) said the next person to enter the mosque is one of the people of Jannah, then the Prophet(saw) repeated this 3 times at different times and the same sahabah came through the door. So one of the sahabah that saw this with the Prophet(saw) wanted to know what is special about this sahabah, so he could also do it and be one of the people of paradise, the hadeeth goes on but my point is to see and look at the people we feel from evidence will be the people of paradise, in their taqwah, character, actions, etc.

So with-out a doubt you will find good, strong muslims in all lands, that’s mashallah the barakah of this deen, it comes down to a strong foundation of Islam and I think many of us all acknowledge that to gain the strong foundation of Islam, so the fitnah will have a minimum affect on us we can only get from a Islamic environment, mainly found in the Muslim countries.

I remember the example of the Imam who saw the ankle of a woman and was made to forget some Islamic knowledge, now imagine coming out of the mosque after a lesson and seeing wonder bra adverts, which will you remember?

That Islamic environment still can not be found in the west, unless you live on a farm with no TV.

At University you would see Muslims coming from Muslim countries and getting up to no good, and others you would see that were strong in Islam, they got involved in the dawa and were affected minimally from the fitnah in the Universities and western society. Follow their background and you will find them immersed in Islam within their community in a Islamic environment, and been educated is Islam, Look at the brothers that now live and give dawa in the west like Yassir, Tawfiq who studied in Medinah, the environment helped them apart from the fact that a Arab Muslim country will give you what the west can’t, dive into the deep end of Arabic. ‘”The teeth of the key to Islam.”

So, my point is that the Muslim countries are good for building strong foundations in Islam, for yourself, for your children, your wife.

Now in reality we have to work and eat, mashallah the brothers that study in Medinah Uni get sponsor, not much but it makes a big difference, so the real question comes down to your tolerance.

If you asked me to do business in Pakistan or Egypt, I would never get involved due to the corruption, I can just about tolerate working in the UAE and they are considered a lot more transparent and accountable, depending on who you work for.

And I never felt the satisfaction and achievement that I had done something like the feeling when I was involved in the dawa in the UK, every part of that work would reinforce my Islam, the traveling to the talks, it was a struggle for Allah(swt), now that is what you don’t get in the Muslim countries, because the whole dawa scene either does not exist or is controlled, again Dubai being a bit different mashallah we have every year a place to conduct dawa at the Dubai Shopping festival. But nothing like the freedom of dawa in the west, even with the current pressure.

So best thing for everyone is to plan to get the best out of both worlds, no one should think they will just stick to one place and that’s it, in today’s mode of travel and organized activities.

My plan inshallah, is to use this Islamic environment to build the strong foundation in my wife and children, so when they have to go to UK to study in a University because the Uni’s in the Muslim countries are very poor in secular subjects, they have the strong foundation they need, and me I would like to learn Arabic, study and return to the UK to work in the dawa, Even though there is a lot of dawa in theses Muslim countries not to non-Muslims but to the Muslims, and this is were mashallah Bilal Philips has the most experience, mshallah he set up a degree program and other mainly organized study programs in the UAE all within the political and governmental structure, and now mashallah he started the same thing in Qatar.

Anyway I suppose a lot more could be said, but keep in mind some basics, I have to save my self and then my family from the fire, my decision was straight forward, I could inshallah save myself from the fire by living in the UK because I had been there done it, but I know myself, and it would have been very difficult to say I could save my children by living there, if I had no children, I would not have left. Because I loved what we were doing for the dawa, For me it was who has more priorities over me dawa or my children?

[Fatima Barkatulla]

Brother Shabber and Abu Maryam...if you love for your brothers what you love for yourselves....then please make sincere du'a for me that myself and my family can make hijrah to a stable Muslim environment and that Allah puts khair in it for us. I have three sons and I definitely don't want to be here when they start getting anywhere near puberty. I also love the da'wah work...but I feel that on a personal level and a family level there are detriments too. Also...when I was in Egypt I came across many da'wah opportunities there. I too would like to live in a Muslim country and then perhaps return here later for da'wah work etc. having laid the firm foundations. Though if I stay here, I feel my children will also become strong because they will get used to going 'against the grain' of society and they will learn that you have to do what is right no matter what people around you are doing.

ARGcomment: I have added here a comment from AbuZakariaya, which should I think be in this section, but was posted to Global fitna and disunity. So my comment at the end of that..PLEASE sister barkatulla answer the question. Actually whole topic should be a seperate post!

Asalaam alekum

Having just made hijra to the UAE, I have been reading this blog with interest - especially the one on the pros n cons of hijra..
I change my mind daily on this issue - it certainly is not black and white - but still come down on the side of hijra (for now!). For me its all about the kids - they are clearly so much happier and at peace as muslims here - my son shouts out the adhan everytime he hears it, my daughters dress up in niqabs for fun, they are generally much more interested in anything to do with Islam than they were in the UK - and they were at a muslim school there, and are at a non-muslim school here! The environment is very important.
But life here is not stable, we don't have the rights we have back home, it is true everything is more controlled here; but does our free speech do us any good in the UK? Is it any more than an illusory outlet for righteous indignation? I definitely sleep better knowing I'm not paying taxes to support the British army...

At the end of the day it is about what you do, I think. If you are being effective in the UK, helping the community, giving dawah successfully, then mashallah stay with it. But be careful of your kids, I have known many bros active in dawah who are so busy they don't notice their own kids slipping away from the deen...

To the bro in Ajaman (Shabber?) any chance we could get in touch? I'm thinking of moving there maybe next year inshallah (am in Al Ain at the moment).

Masalaam

Abu Zakariya

Salaam

Abu Zakariya

ARGcomment: your right about the kids, no doubt, and the illusionary nature of free speech.
My main issue is more philisophical, and you and Shabbr both have reinforced my point. Why is we consider adhan and niqab as and "islamic" enviroment, but not freedom from bribery and corruption, and justice sytem that is applicable to all, right for workers, social security, etc..etc?
How about the rascism and distain asians are treated with in some places in the Gulf. Now I am not saying that there aren't racists here in UK, of course there are, but there laws against it, which are regularily enforced.
Now i think that our kids growing up in west take these things as normative behaviour, the things we have to "teach" them are about hijab, no drugs or sex outside of marriage.
My question is this, so any readers please answer...do those other qualities that are just as important in Islam, get "picked up" by your kids as normative behaviour in the Muslim lands, or do you have to "teach" them that this is in fact the right way to behave.
I mean isn't it that in both places in different ways you have to "go against the grain."

[Shabber Adam]

ARG i see were u are coming from, the simple analysis would be the old British discipline of queuing. Now I get frustrated here when people jump queues and not just people queues but people drive on the hard shoulder to get ahead in the traffic. This requires patience, and by the way it is against the law here and on the odd occasion you see police hiding behind a sign jumping out and fining the drivers.

The point here being that most of the people who jump queues don’t see it as anything wrong, so now will my kids grow up jumping queues, or worst thinking they are doing nothing wrong; by pushing in front of others they are Islamicly putting another person in difficultly, due to time etc. Once you say something to the people about queuing up they have no argument because they know they are wrong and just move back.

This will ultimately depend on how immersed they are in this society, if they went to government school, spent most of their time with Arabs then yes, I would say they would probably not realize the importance of the affect of queuing, and thus other issues such as you mentioned bribery, corruption, treatment of Asian workers, etc.

So if my children were going to government school and immersed with the local population I would say it would be easier to teach my children that bribery, corruption, etc is wrong and not from Islam.

You see even in this country or lets say for example Pakistan which is much more corrupt than other Muslim countries, no one actually believes or the law states the corruption is something good, yes people are corrupt and actively make it part of their day to day life, but no one would ever say it is something good, on the other hand in the west, the things you teach your children to stay away from, girls, boys, music, wine, etc, is actually encouraged as something good, you see it all starts from, just going with my friends to watch a movie, to dad I will be staying over at my friends house tonight, (done it before, actually yes will be staying at my friends house after I came back from the party), this is all normal day to day life in the west, and your children will get a lot of pressure in college and Uni, if they want to be part of the crowd, for a boy it just takes the right girl, especially as teenagers,

You see still today in areas were more Muslims live that going to the Mosque, or learning Quran after asr, or respecting your elders, or being with your family on Friday’s is a way of life, even for the teenagers, So teenagers being with other teenagers consider learning Quran respecting their parents is a way of life and not chasing after girls, going to parties, I have not seen the University party life here, and I work at a University, the most people do is go to dunkin donuts, they don’t organize fresher parties, etc.

I am not saying things don’t happen here but they are hidden, just like the UAE has off-licenses, pubs and night clubs, but you do not see them, and thus your children don’t see them.

Personally this is my up to date evaluation of bringing up children, Bringing up children under 10 in the UK, not a problem, going to a UK Uni once your kids have a strong foundation of Islam and are married, again no problem, so I would say the minimum Muslims should do if they cant make hijrah is send their kids from the age of 11 to 18 to a Islamic environment, boarding school, etc. where they would study, GCSE, Arabic, Quran, Islamic character, active development of Islamic character through sports activities, etc. Now that would be great, anyone got any cash to start a boarding school. .

Last point we should not forget the importance of an Islamic environment; the Prophet(saw) built an Islamic environment to nurture the young Muslims to the point that the word of Allah(swt) was spread throughout the world.

By the way we run a Bed and Breakfast in Ajman, so anyone coming to Dubai, go to www.mebandb.com or email me on adam@shabber.com

May Allah(swt) make us learn the truth, accept the truth and implement the truth, ameen.

ARGcomment: now that's a good answer!

[Saifullah]

ARG, Italy is definitely nice. I went to Catania a few years ago via Rome. At Rome, it was time to pray and at the airport I started praying in a less busier place. After I finished praying I noticed that cops were all around me (actually behind me!). Apparently an Italian lady tipped them off. My long beard, brown skin and an Indian passport is not something which many Europeans are happy to see. The questioning started. Where are you from? Why are you in Italy? Is your passport fake? Did you enter via the proper channel? A few phone calls were exchanged between the police and then they let me go after they were satisfied that I am a genuine visitor. Apart from this experience, I have lovely time in Catania, in the foothills of Mt. Etna. We had good food (nice veggie pasta + pizza) and my hotel room looked the Mediterranean Sea. Nothing beats it. The journey back to the UK was less eventful. We had a big jama'a at Rome airport comprising of Algerians on the way to Saudi Arabia. But I thought they got the qibla wrong as their method was crude and unscientific! And my pleading to them did not help...

By the way, my emails to your aol a/c bouncing back. Send me your current email.

ARGcomment: mashallah, good to hear from you Saifullah!
I have ditched aol. now awggreen@gmail.com

[Fatima Barkatulla]

Sorry ARG I posted a comment about hijrah in the GPU section...maybe you could post it here for me.

Fatima
(ARG: ok here it is.....)

hat ARG is saying above is absolutely right...

I don't think any of us can say there is a perfect environment to live in. Only better and worse....and even the better is tainted.

I would like my children to absorb the best that the West has to offer and the best of what the Muslim world has to offer. Some might scoff at this but it is true: The West definitely makes your standards when it comes to integrity and transparency and even justice higher.

Having studied in the Al-Azhar school system for two years of my teenage life...I saw cheating by students and cheating encouraged by teachers and even examiners! Can you imagine? Having come from the UK, and experienced the exam system here, I very carefully prepared for exams for Al-Azhar in Fiqh, Seerah, Hadeeth, Sociology, Arabic language and Morphology, Geography, Qur'an memorisation all in the Arabic medium....staying up late at night to prepare for exams. I arrive for one exam at the exam hall and mid exam, my friend turns around and asks students what the answers are. Then an examiner comes in...looks out of the door to make sure no one is looking and says in Arabic: Right....here are the answers...and starts quoting the answers while I look on in disbelief. One girl asks 'how do you spell that?" (!!!) I mean, there's me actually working hard for the exam and a whole load of other students pass the exam with me...having not studied a thing! What would that teach our children? The reason why I expected integrity was because of my experience in the UK, having grown up seeing it around me in the institutions in which I studied.

I would like my children to absorb the Islamic attitudes and environment many Muslim countries have to offer...but if I am unable to make hijrah though we have been trying....then I will make the most of my situation here in the UK and glean as many benefits for my children as possible here so that when we do eventually go elsewhere, they will benefit from the best of both environments. In the meantime, we can regularly visit Muslim countries for the Summer for example.

My sons (aged 5, 3 and 1 1/2) all call the adhan and pray salaah with the eldest as Imam. (They try on hijab once in a while too!) They can speak Fus-ha Arabic and the five year old has memorised Juz 'Amma. Ma sha Allah. The only reason why I mention these things is this: I, the mother am their main influence right now. I am their 'Muslim country' if you like. We can never rely on the outside environment to cater for everything. Living here is making me strive harder to teach my children the best I can. And I have come to see that perhaps if Allah wants us to stay here...there are benefits. As one scholar said: the reward of a woman wearing hijab in the UK is higher than the reward of a woman wearing hijab in a Muslim country because she is going against the grain and actively upholding her deen.
One sister I know in the Gulf who moved there from the UK says her children are definitely racist! They've picked up that attitude from school...they look down on Black people because many Arabs do. Other sisters I know in the Gulf, never interact with their Arab hosts...sticking to expats and not really learning much themselves.
In Egypt, I found Egyptians to be exceptionally friendly and welcoming towards non-Arabs. I even lived with an Egyptian family for a time and wherever I went, when people asked me where I was from, when they heard I was originally from India, they would be even happier and say 'Indians and Arabs are cousins!' (and then they'd start telling me about the Bollywood stars they knew of!) But when I hung around them long enough I would find that even many of them looked down on Black people. (They thought of Indians as more like them, so we were OK). And they looked up to white people. Having white skin was so desirable to them (even niqabi sisters I knew there), that when one of my Egyptian friends came to the UK for the first time, she said 'I used to think I was White,' but now she realised 'these women are really white!' And she said how jealous she felt everywhere she went because her husband would see these 'real White' women. I was quite surprised at the shallowness. At one point, some brothers including my husband went to help a Black woman on the street whose car had broken down. She asked me 'isn't it fitnah for them to help women here?' Her husband said to her 'Don't worry, there's no fitnah...the woman is Black'. I was quite shocked as these were people who were 'knowledgeable'. I tried to explain to her that we didn't see things like that here in the UK. Black could be beautiful and White could be ugly and vice versa...depending on the eye of the beholder. I don't think she got it.

The problem with our generation growing up in the UK was that our parents didn't know what this society was about, so couldn't prevent many of the negative effects on us. Our generation is much more clued up because we've lived it. That means we can prevent our children from some of the negative things we were exposed to.

So essentially what I'm saying is: take the benefit wherever you find it and don't see any place with rose tinted glasses.

ARGcomment: mashallah, this is a gem! jazakallah khair.
You mentioned about visiting a muslim country for summer. I remeber sh Mohammed Ismail (ha) said that if you dwell in the non-muslim lands you should go the muslim lands every now and then for a breath of fresh air!

[Fatima Barkatulla]

Having said all of the above (!) I must say that the benefits of a Muslim country do outway the detriments. I mean believers are still more beloved to Allah than those who reject him right? Even if the believers are sinners. And there is a lot of da'wah work that can be done in the Muslim countries too. We have to learn the language and really engage with our brothers and sisters there. I remember once on the way to school myself and my friend talked to Egyptian girls about hijab...once we told off a group of boys who were standing at the roadside smoking and trying to chat up girls. They actually felt embarassed and one of them came up to us afterwards and said: you made me realise I shouldn't be doing that. I only do it because all my friends do it. Then because he was a Muslim and had that inner conscience we reminded him to think about what Allah would think. As people from the UK, we can have a lot of influence on Muslims in the East, because when they see a Westerner loving Islam it can really affect them. Once I went to the bank in Al-Hussein in Cairo and the bank clerk (who was probably in his 50's) actually had a tear in his eye as he said: sister, I feel so happy to see a sister in hijab like you. I wish our women covered like you. And he was even more impressed when we heard that I was from the UK. Sometimes people would not believe that I was British because they thought there were no Muslims in Britain. Other times they asked me if I wore hijab in Britain, thinking that maybe I only wore it in a Muslim country. There is a lot of da'wah potential in Muslim countries if only we would engage with the people there and not just stick to expats. But it can also be depressing to see Muslims chasing after the very things you ran away from.

I think if a person stays here (in the West) they must be actively involved in da'wah...simply because otherwise they will drown in the negative effects of this environment. Da'wah is like a shield that keeps your defences up. Some people may have elderly parents here who are not going to move...and they cannot abandon them. Still if a person feels that this environment is detrimental to their Iman then they should definitely go...

And we should never start feeling cushy here. I mean then we will become complacent. And also...we should be in the company of the righteous often or our non-Muslim colleagues will affect us. My husband sees many brothers compromising their deen here...shaking hands with women, having a laugh with non-Muslim women, being too embarrassed to keep a beard. One brother told my husband that he is very depressed because he doesn't find his wife attractive any more, though she hasn't changed. My husband asked him if he lowers his gaze, if he looks at women on TV etc etc. All these images and influences around us mean we have to keep our guard up very strongly otherwise we will develop diseases of the heart.

I find this country makes you feel very materialistic too...it's easier to get drawn in to the dunyawi things here.

I would really like to bring up the topic of schooling though. I mean, I really think if your children go to non-Muslim schools you have to realise what they are going through and witnessing. Please read the following posts and comments from brothers about non-Muslim schools, sex education etc. I am not trying to say that children who go to non-Muslim schools will turn out bad...what I was really saying in the posts was why I chose to send my son to a Muslim school and why we have to remember the disgusting things our children are exposed to in non-Muslim schools. Alhamdulillah my son got a place in a Muslim school and if not, I planned to homeschool him...but most people still send their kids to non-Muslim schools....just read my experience of sex-education and the brother's who commented and remember that at that age in your life, this country can really mess you up:

http://muslimmotherhood.blogspot.com/2007/01/my-visit-to-prep-school-and-my-memories.html

This one is about going to a non-Muslim secondary school for boys and my thoughts on non-Muslim schools. I'm not being judgemental...just analysing how we should not think non-Muslim schools are better (as some of my friends actually look down on Muslim schools and choose private schools)

http://muslimmotherhood.blogspot.com/2007/01/going-to-boys-public-school.html

ARGcomment: no doubt Allah loves the believers more, but this was never my point or intent.
I have a question. Would you rather you kids when to a well disciplined Roman Catholic school, with good morals, manners and high level of education or a Muslim school where the students are lazy, abusive, take drugs and have lousy results?
Now in both schools you can wear hijab, and pray, although in the Muslim school there are more, you won't feel so "strange" and they make adhan, and have halal meat, BUT many of the girls wear hijab cause the have to and take it off when they can, and half the Muslim students don't pray any how..

[Abu Zakariya]

Salaam

It strikes me that we seem to talk a lot in negative, reactive terms. About the ways to protect our kids against the decadence of the West, for example, or the corruption of the East. Maybe this is the problem more than where we live - our mindset? Why do we always seem to be on the defensive? Why are muslim schools for eg, (sorry to always use schools - just I have experience of them being a teacher!) always going on about protecting kids from fitna etc (even here in the Gulf)? Sure they teach quran and Arabic mashallah, but apart from that they are just normal schools with bits taken out - only for muslims. In the UK the effect this often has is to actually turn kids off Islam as they, naturally, want to be fully part of the society they are in. Some of the worst-behaved, foul-mouthed kids I taught in a muslim secondary school in the UK were also very knowledgable - one was even hafiz of Quran! Audhu billah. Why not make islamic schools rather than schools for muslims? Schools open to all, that are based, from bottom up, on islamic ideals and aims, rather than the secular national curriculum?

Why don't we try to create new, visionary types of institutions that try to take humanity forwards with the eternal principles laid out in Quran and Sunnah? Isn't that what they early muslims did? We need to act rather than talk... Since I became muslim I have heard and read so much talk about Islam, but action? And does not Allah say in the Quran - "Oh ye who believe, why do you say that which you do not do? Verily Allah hates those who say that which they do not do."

AZ

ARGcomment: Mashallah, this is a simple but amazing point.
First i think some degree of "proctection from fitna" is inevitable. I think this is even an intrinsic part of the deen. Hijab, the rules on mixing, contact between sexes, not even sitting at the table where there is khamr etc...all teach this method. I think though, especially with kids, positive encouragement is jusrt as important. We need the carrot and the stick. Mostly we seem to be all stick and no carrot.
Secondly, I'm sure that we have all heard it said the reformation starts with oneself, then your family, then society..but it seems there is a big jump between family and society. This is a huge transition.
Where is there a working model of a modern Islamic state?
Your comment raises a potential gap filler...schools. Schools are something between family and society. If we can make schools run with the Islamic ethos and modern teaching methods and technologies it would seem that the transition to a practical manifestion of Islam in society will be natural.
I have long noticed and protested that everything we do education wise is upside down, and even though I know this, hypocritically, my kids have not been taught any differently. I can see the mistakes but am at a loss how to actually change it, or perhaps am too engaged in other matters.
Islamic civilization was the strongest and most advanced in the world.
What was the system of education.
1Memorise the Quran
2study of Arabic
3study of hadith
4usool ul fiq
..it was only after one was well grounded in these that you went on to study other subjects. This means that every branch of knowledge was fonded on the Islamic ethos.
Now we do it the other way round. We study everything with a bare knowledge of the deen, and fit in Islamic studies in between, afterwards..and look at our condtition!

[Fatima Barkatulla]

Which Muslim School do you know in the UK that has a drugs problem? And why do you think that in a Muslim school here - most of the kids wouldn't pray? I don't think there is any point talking hypothetically unless we really have that problem in front of us.

I actually went to one particular London Muslim School as a sixth former, so I have some limited insight into the school and my son is currently at the primary school section of that school. I have had a positive experience so far masha Allah. Not perfect, but positive. I don't think the school is overprotective. All of the parents of children in my sons class seem practising Muslims...recent ofsted report said that the school was 'good' in nearly all areas. The inspectors particularly noticed the behaviour of children was good and commented on it and said that the Islamic ethos in the classroom meant that there were minimal disruptions to classes.

I am more concerned about the whole school system of learning. My son was learning a lot at home. We had a schedule and we would do Arabic, English, Qur'an Memorisation, Art, some numbers stuff...and at school, because of the 30 kids to a teacher, he obviously wont get the one to one quality he got with me...but I sent him to school to widen his horizons. I don't believe in cocooning our children at all and I don't feel he is cocooned at school. He hasn't learnt any bad words or nasty habits, which people often worry about. He listens to the Sheikh at the school who gives very nice khutbahs and assemblies and he tells me about it all.

It's not just about 'protection from fitnah', it is about habituating a child to good. The think I am concerned about is the speed of progress in learning and the standards compared to say a prep school.

But I am not relying on the school to educate my children.
The most important thing is I think that parents take responsibility for their children's education and not leave it totally to someone else. So, for example, I taught my son to read in English and in Arabic at home before he started school. We do memorisation of Qur'an at home. He goes trampolining for an hour a week with a non-Muslim group of kids and instructor. We do arty things at home.

If I had to choose between the two choices you mentioned, I would think and assess the age of my child and maturity...and then would probably homeschool! (My children are so young right now I haven't even come across the 'tough' decisions yet).

A Classical education is what I aspire for my children! There is a book called 'The Well Trained Mind' which is a brilliant manual for parents to give their children a classical education at home, even if their kids go to school. If you look at it, it is very Islamic in the order in which things are taught...the trivium it is called: Grammar stage, Logic stage and Rhetoric stage....the grammar stage is when the child memorises everything he can...(similar to how Muslim kids used to memorise Qur'an and poetry and rules of tajweed in poetic form etc) even if a child doesn't understand what exactly they are memorising, like time tables or the Latin verb conjugations...they also learn language fluently and it is the parrot stage. (In a classical education you would learn a Classical language like Latin...Arabic could be substituted for that as it has all the grammar benefits of Latin and is more useful to us, though Latin would give us an insight into English itself.) Then the logic stage is when the child learns how to think logically, so logic is taught as a subject (like mantaq was in the Muslim world) as well as the other subjects, then when the child has the information in their brains and the critical thinking...he has all the tools to begin the next stage which is to express, to compose arguments and essays etc...

That was a very simplistic explanation. But the Classical education is a model really to give a child a robust and thorough education...

I'm trying to weave it in along with school...

I've just started out on this journey and from day 1 I have prayed to Allah that he be my children's 'Murabbi' or educator or nurturer. So I have to have tawakkul and go whichever way He takes us...praying Istikharah as we go.

ARGcomment: yes, i read your blog and followed the links on the classical style education, which was very interesting.
My question was hypothetical, but what I was trying to do was reduce the discussion on Muslim lands vs non Muslims to a sort of managable, simplified level. It was more a case of testing our principals universally to see if they really are sound.
There are comprehensive schools all over the country full of muslims (although not Muslim schools) where my hypothesis would actually apply. And I do know of at least one proper full on Muslim school where it has come to me that the students are taking drugs in large numbers. On student told a parent (who is my friend) that is was worse the kuffar school the had been formally attended by the child. I'm not going to mention the school here though, if you want to know I'll tell you personally.
Anyway, this wasn't the intent of question. Sorry for not making it clear.

[Fatima Barkatulla]

A good book is: Dumbing us Down, by John Taylor Gatto. About how compulsory schooling was invented to keep us all at a particular level etc.

There was a conference on this subject which is available on CD called:

'Educating your child in Modern Times' by John Taylor Gatto & Hamza Yusuf Hanson, to get an alternative view on schooling and why home-schooling is a good option. You can get it here:

http://www.islamicwarehouse.co.uk/product_detail.php?productid=A003015

Definitely worth a listen!

ARGcomment: yes, I am familiar with these ideas also. The Western education system is of course designed to make you a compliant part of the consumer society!

[Fatima Barkatulla]

The problem with the hypothesis is this: Though a Catholic school may have outwardly the good behaviour etc...most of the kids will probably not be true believers, may be atheists etc but their parents wanted a good school so sent them to a Catholic one. Also, what about the hymns and music lessons? What about their attitude to sexual relationships? Do you think even most Catholics nowadays really believe in abstinence until marriage? I don't think so. So their attitudes to boys and girls will be the same as anywhere. At least Muslim children aspire to marry. I mentioned on my blog that girls at my Muslim secondary school might have had a crush on someone etc...but they would go out looking at wedding dresses and cute things like that. In my non-Muslim secondary school, we would go out and girls would look for 'hooker boots' as they called them and mini skirts and the most revealing clothing. I was always the odd one out. Though I got on with everyone, I was the 'innocent one'. So it is what is outside the lessons that I am concerned about. The peer pressure. I have many friends who went through a particular Muslim girls' secondary school for example. And I and my 2 sisters too were there in the sixth form as I mentioned and from what I know, at least in this school, (my reliable friend who went to both a non-Muslim school and then to this school also concurs): it was always a minority of girls who behaved negatively. And even then, the worst behaviour they saw would have been mild compared to non-Muslim comprehensives.

I had a really good educational experience in the UK...was a 'straight A student' Alhamdulillah, got awards for academic achievement at my school. Ma sha Allah. As soon as I finished GCSE's my dad took me to Egypt to study. When I went to Egypt and was around practising Muslims most of the time, I realised how much damage had been done to my character after the years of being in a non-Muslim environment. (School does become your life to a certain extent, especially secondary school, when you have little time to socialise with Muslims properly.) And then came the difficult task of trying to undo everything....so sometimes it takes us to get out of an environment to objectively assess what effect that environment has had or is having on us. I suppose that my experience colours the way I see my children's education. I don't want them to develop diseases of the heart. At the same time I think I am thankful to Allah that that exposure in the end means that I have an insight into this society which helps in da'wah and other ways. Alhamdulillah.

I think we have to judge each school on its individual merit. Shouldn't we think like this: Which environment would Allah be more pleased with me sending my child? Do I have a choice? Do I have the right reasons for making this decision? What do my circumstances dictate? In the end...when we face the decision we have to make the best choice for our children I suppose. It is the same with hijrah in many ways...you have to judge each country on its individual merit...can't really make sweeping statements about 'the Muslim countries'.

My dad who is on the Shariah Council actually encouraged me to send my kids to the local school (probably because he wants things to be easy for me and because he thinks the exposure will build character.) Even other scholars like Sheikh Haitham say that our responsibility is to minimise the harm that our children may be exposed to as much as we are able. He sends his children to a non-Muslim school and does his best to minimise any negatives. He thinks we should stay in this country as we can do more good here.

But sometimes I feel that the generation who came here and didn't go through school as practising Muslim children just cannot know what it is like and how bad things can be.

If I bring this subject up, my husband says: Just make informed decisions and have tawakkul. I know he is right. We cannot engineer our children's lives, we can simply do the best we can in our circumstances...the end result is in Allah's hands.

ARGcomment: OF course those negative things you mentioned about the Catholic school are taken for granted...

[Fatima Barkatulla]

Just look at this...this is a bit weird:

The Jewish School where half the pupils are Muslims:

http://education.independent.co.uk/schools/article2201860.ece