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Sunday, 17 June 2007

Comments

drbash

i think you wiped the floor with this unpleasant g*t.
These guys are just so full of themselves.....and they think that is a way to get to god!
well done keep going.....

murtad mustafa is more likely to be a nigerian christian pastor than a real mustafa...

ARGcomment: his Quran wasn't too bad! Probably spent quite a while rehearsing it. I was thinking about what someone said that you will find knowledgable Chrisitians become Muslim hardly every find except except the ignorant muslim becoming Christian!

Anon

'Premier Christian Radio' has a ring of tackyness about it so I've no problem with picturing the be-suited church propagandists rubbing their hands in glee at getting a popular Muslim personality on the show to goad and poke at. No doubt they would've felt it was a ratings winner and, cynical as this maybe, also to serve their (and their listeners') own pride and self-entertainment?
As far as the value and use of such discussions- as much as it is needed I'm thinking about how useful it was for you to accept an invitation on a recorded show which can be edited and mis-represented in many different ways, especially in light of trying to reach a mature and understanding audience, which if Evangelical Christians area anything to go by, aren't particularly so.
However, I feel that in trying to shake up some old heads out there, getting them to question their belief by throwing some rays of light at them in their Evangelical corner of the world, then of course it is appropriate for you to have accepted their invitation. And so for the one or two people listening that would've hadd at least one head-scratching moment it balances out- just about. For next time, maybe avoid recorded shows and go for a live show- which themselves have many pitfalls and all?!
Shot in the dark time- do you hold any gatherings/circles that one could attend (I know you've got your Fundamentals Course), fortnightly/once a week, motivational kinda thing? Or would that fall under the umbrella of the Fundamentals Courses?
Wa salamu-alaiykum wa rahmatullah

ARGcomment: Jzk khair for the advice! I don't have any regular daroos at the mo. The fundamentals course is going to start again soon after a break, inshallah. For further study I really recomment Al Kauthar institute, and the courses held by Yasir Qadi and Tawfeeq Chauwdry!

Anon

Just listened to the programme, it's just ober an hour long, they spent the first 10 minutes of it advertising all of their other weekly shows?!
You did very well Mash' Allah in a very controlled and manipulative environment.
It didn't sound like it was edited too much, but who knows- how long were you in there for? The discussion was about an hour long from what I gathered.
Craig Allan just didn't get the point you made about mis-interpretation and it was very obvious, even though you were very emphatic in your explanation of how even Christians take things out of context,he just didn't want to know- closed and narrow-minded he showed himself to be.
Brother Sadeeq Hamed did a good job as well, especially in cutting down Justin the host on the wording of his question.
'Mr. Mustapha', hmmm, how he stooged it up for all and sundry:) You rightfully cut them down on making the point about 'Mr. Mustapha' having to disguise his voice and name for fear and safety concerns and nonsense like that, media sensationalism most definitely.
May Allah guide you in this tough and stressful work you have undertaken. Ameen.

Adil Hussain

> (although I haven't figured yet how to get it to play!)

It's halfway down the page. Listed in the 'On Demand' section. When you click 'Listen' it should start in your default media player (most likely 'Windows Media Player').

There may be an ActiveX warning on the top of your screen when the page loads which is causing the error. Click it and select run or install or whatever it wants you to approve.

ARGcomment: I click listen and my player comes up (Winamp) but also with a menue box to my temp. internet files. Confusing.

That should get the audio started. Insha-Allah.

Yahya Hayder Seymour

Asalaamu Alaikum,

I'm surprised you agreed to go onto the Show to be honest, because most muslims wish not to get into such discussions with people such as Alan Craig.

Ironically, Alan Craig has been desperate to debate with Muslims....His videos are made by the same group that make Joseph H. Smith's (Jay) videos on Youtube, and he has occasionally shown up to speaker's corner along with Jay to debate with Muslims at the Corner. Jay approached us to debate with Allan Craig (with him as the Moderator A.K.A Puppet Master) but we refused.

Although keep an eye on youtube, as we have footage of Jay correcting Allan Craig in what he "meant" when Muslims took up Councillor Craig on the errors he made; which we plan to upload.

ARGcomment: Ahhh...he had a ring of "Mr Smith" about him now that you mention it.
Hmm...perhaps if I had know that I'd have reconsidered.
Next time I'll be sending out a "does anyone have any info on these guys" request!

M. S. M. Saifullah

ARG, unbelievable! You agreed to participate this kind of a show??!! Alhamdulillah, you did well. I thought that you were itching to go on that Speakers' Corner mode. Murtad Mustafa sounded like Jabba the Hut from Star Wars (honestly!) and I am not sounding sensationalist here. Surely, it is not a compliment! Overall, you did well and then there are always time constraints to deal with issues like this.

Waranga

Well I think there was some benefit in taking part in this type of discussion, I suspect that there are many sincere Christians and I hope they were tuning in, so it may have struck a chord with them, inshaAllah. But I understand completely why many people don't want to partake in debates, though I suppose every situation has to be dealt with as it comes, rather than making a blanket rule, especially on something that isn't makhroo or haram.
I did notice how Jusin would interrupt you and try to cut you off whenever you were on a roll of good points, and to be honest my estimation of his show dropped sharply after listening to 'Mustafa', and his personal, twisted interpretations of Islam, I mean why did he even invite him???? Like it isn't obvious!
Anyway ARG, one clear benefit of your involvement in this discussion has been your conclusions, which are very valid and show your understanding of Islamic and non Islamic issues, which are expressed in a wise way, which is particular to you as an individual, so then if Allah (swt) has made you good at something, then maybe its a sign for you to pursue it keeping the intention for Him, you can't be what your not,hope that makes sense inshaAllah.

Abu Abdurrahman

I think, that Allah placed the truth on the tongue of Warang in this matter! And Allah subhanahu wa ta'aala knows best. May He make us from His sincere, humble servants, ameen.

It's a case by case thing. But personally - for the tupence that it's worth - I'd advise you, as a general rulem, to avaoid/consider carefully, shows which aren't live whereby there's so much scope for cutting and editing. Otherwise, keep up the good work ARG!! May Allah reward you, ameen.

ARGcomment: Jzk khair, much appreciated!

Shabber Adam

Assalamalakum,

Wow, the Mr Smith school of thought, ‘just lie with a truthful tone – the people are too ignorant to know it’s a lie’

I suppose they will go ahead with these kinds of program if you go on them or not, I think you have little choice but to go on these programs, either wise what will happen is they will grab some ignorant Muslim and it will be a lot worse, al humdulilah you were able to put some very good points across, at a minimum anyone sincerely listening would have more questions rather than just believe what these guys Allan and Mustapha said, also you left the listeners with a option to get in touch and clarify their misconceptions. It also shows the lies, the extreme Christians views, inshallah, make duáa, be sincere and Allah(swt) will bless you with the right words in these situations.

Shabber Adam

Umm Ibrahim

I agree with most of the comments above.

I think it is important for knowledgeable Muslims to take part in such discussions, as shying away from them may make people think that whats being said by the other party, is true. Even if we can convey a little of the true message of Islam to those viewing/listening, then hopefully it'll make a difference to how people view Islam and Muslims, and better still, may awaken in the listener/viewer,the natural fitrah of believing in One God.

Al-Hassan

Assalamu alaikum to you all.

After I've listened Mustafa the 'Unbeliever' and Mr Craig the Unbeleiveable's cheap argument, it was clear to everyone that they were desperately playing a dirt, finger poit, double faced blame game. ARG, I think you rocked the boat bro. I couldn't find a better person who is well equipt and well rounded for this kind of 'Unbeleivable'debates.

If I am allow to say this, may Allah (swt) show them (Allan Craig and Mustafa!) the right path and guide them to the truth for surely they are in state of desperation and misquoting US, amen.

And bro ARG, May Allah reward you for your time that you have spent for this Da'wah, it was worth while. Amen insha'Allah

Wassalaam warahma
Al-Hassan

Justin Brierley

Hi, I was the presenter (and producer) of the show. I'm glad its created a place for at least discussing these issues openly, even if we won't (inevitably) agree.

The show was pre-recorded, and a minor amount of editing had to take place to allow for the time constraints fo the programme, however none of the essential points by ARG were taken out, and I think you will agree he had as much mic time as anyone else.

ARGcomment: I have to say that Justin was very tolerant of my assertiveness in trying to get my point across, and thanks to him for inviting me on the show.
I think the comments show the appreciation of the need to be able to get our point across, and thanks again to you Justin for giving us the chance to do that.

I am keen to continue these interfaith debates on the programme.

If anybody would like to contribute as a Muslim guest in the future please feel free to contact me on unbelievable@premier.org.uk, and I will try to ensure a fair discussion.

Thanks
Justin Brierley

Salma

I personaly felt that it was quite obvious the programme had not been unfairly edited. Of course, it is not right to put everyone in the same boat, and perhaps we should be more careful of not doing that to others as we are sometimes at the receiving end of this, but not always. The fact that ARG was invited, and he in particular, tells me a lot. Thanks Justin.

If I may add, I did feel that a lot of points were raised although one would expect that not all of them could be responded to in the time. This is simply because of bringing up so many points during long statements. And then to be allowed to make interruptions, was not fair. To be able to listen to the responses was the fun part for a topic like this. The talking over each other was particularly frustrating because I could not hear a single word of either speaker and I felt that I was missing out on what they were saying.

Salma

drbash

the program was not biased....and i think it speaks volumes about these guys strength of faith that they invited ARG at all. we have to take our hat/turban/caps off to them for that....

and remember allah says in the quran that christians are closest to the believers in love as well as that he has set those who follow jesus above those who disbelieve....

Zimarina


Whoa- how charged was that?!

May Allah (swt) guide Allan Craig. Ameen. Straight into the arms of TJ too insh'Allah ;)

I loved the way he would say 'Christ never had a sword, unlike your Muhammad' then 'I like Muslims, I live amongst them, I go to their mosques' (doesn't this strike as the old "I'm not racist, I have black friends"-!?) followed by a 'the difference between Islam & Christianity is that we would never allow anyone to say they can kill in the name of Christ' loool...Is it a bird? Is it a plane? It's PURE DELUSION!

Our bud Mustafa should audition for the next Star Wars epic...might be quite a novelty having a former Mouzlem-ist turned Xtian Darth Vader.

Btw ARG- I thought you done a great job ma shaa Allah, I particularly liked when you just had to straight out exclaim at the obvious sensationalism- I wouldn't have lasted as long as you had that's for sure..I also liked the way you went from being "Abdul RahIm" to "Rahim" to straight "Ramin" (did you catch that last one?!)..

Their site had an interesting bunch of stuff on it though ma shaa Allah...and I liked the presenter and the way he tried to juggle between the two of you.
Would love to see what the average Xtian listener's feedback to it was. Hmm..

Zimarina

Apologies for the double-post, but I've just read through everybody else's comments and had a few follow-ups..

Firstly, Justin- I think it's a bit cynicial to say it's inevitable we will not agree. The great thing about life is that you just never know..

Secondly- Brother Abu Abdurrahman "I think, that Allah placed the truth on the tongue of Warang in this matter!"- What a beautiful phrase!!

And to quote Warang(a)- "you can't be what your not"- I'd like to add you also cannot be what you are. If that makes sense..

The need for these kind of discussion are very clear and present, though I agree with all the wise words of caution from other posters about the kind of invitations you consider and accept. We definately need the media-savvy lot out there, but they have to be very fine-tuned in that they don't fall into speaking the same 'language' of the media (i.e:.lies/exaggeration/slander/hyperbole etc)- it's a very delicate balance and requires great skill, experience and knowledge.

ARG- May Allah (swt) purify your intentions, keep you sincere to Him, preserve you and increase you in knowledge. Ameeeen :)

S

Hello guys!
I am Christian and live in a Christian Democratic Country UK, well, sometimes too democratic if my country lets Others to almost openely show Hostility and Agressiveness towards Christians.. Others like you, who came to UK, do as English do... Have you heard it? When you are in Rome, do as Romans do but do not Try to Change Romans... You, guys, try to change us.. Democracy? You have probably, never heard of this word and will not, probably, understand the full meaning of this word..Shame.. Respect? The same as above: seems that all world has to listen to your problems but you have no space in your hearts for others including those who created countries where you live now. Do not get me wrong: I have friends where husband is muslim but his wife is not and they are very good friends of mine.. Unfortunately, they are minority. Wouild be nice if you show respect and kindness towards Christians at least!!

ARGcomment: That is funny!!! Maybe you posted your comment in the wrong place by mistake.
How much respect does Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens show towards Christianity???
Actually most Christians don't even seem to show much respect to Christianity either.
Also this "Christian Democratic Country" only is what it is because it spent a good three hundred years dealing in Opium and Slaves and robbing India, China and Africa (after we got the boot from America!) Very Christian. Now of course oil in Iraq. Now when the Brits went to India and Africa did they do what the Indians and Africans did? Or did they try to impose their religion there???? Dr Livingstone I presume! Ever heard of that? Christian missionary.
Also btw I am English. I didn't "come" here. My father, and his father and his fathers fathers were Colonial Administrators for the British Empire. From my paternal side were as Anglo Saxon as could be, and even if they weren't, so what?
As for Democracy...I challenge you to define it. What is democracy exactly? You probably don't even know. In fact you'll probably have to look it up!!!
hahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahaah!

Shyed Shahriar

About that Christian democracy, I want to say something;

I live in Bangladesh most of whose people are non-Christians. Since its independence, Bangladesh have spend half of its life under dictatorship. Currently it is also under dictatorship, at least the western Christian democratic governments call that. But I think , even our dictators are better than or at least as good as the western democracies. Because westerners think that, Christians democracies are the only system that can ensure freedom, freedom of religion. But in Bangladesh under both dictatorship and democracy freedom of religion is assured.

I can give example,

There are at least 500 private schools/high schools in Bangladesh which are run by missionaries. Their main job is to spread Christian religion, and where do they get their money to spread their religion, from the school fees paid by students of those schools (90% Muslims). I know very well about hem because a had lived just outside the boundary of one. It will take a large space to describe them, but in short it can be said that they are like Green Zone of Iraq or like a mini Vatican. There are people of many nationalities there. The spend huge amount of money to make their living place as comfortable as possible, like little piece of Europe, expending money, in the name of Charity and Christianity.

Many of these schools are more than 100 years old . These schools were being used as a safe house by the agents for the British rulers in India and Bangladesh, who are like Nazi Germans and Hitler and his blood hungry friends to us .( Hitler was a democratically elected Christian ruler). I wander is there any institute in Europe, established by Nazi Germany, still running. But the people and governments of Bangladesh have allowed these Christian missionaries to work freely with our money and let them keep trying to convert people to Christianity.

And these so called nonprofit organizations use their manpower and tax free money , as a tool for manipulating the media and during the elections , they campaign in favor of the candidate of their choice under the disguise of charity. Which is strictly against the law of the state. And not only that whenever possible they try to promote western cultural programs, and western values like campaigning to make prostitution legal, promoting outdoor games for women ( not for man) and many other disgusting things like those. And whenever they give any advertisement for any job in their organizations they specially mention than female candidates should be given priority and she should have an open mind to work anywhere any time with any people and she should be able to ride a motorbike! Yet the medieval ( in the eyes of westerners ), non-Christian people and governments of Bangladesh allow them to work freely.

But sometime those missionaries really bring some money from outside. But where do those come from , most of those come from those companies who sells arms to various Muslim undemocratic countries.
And from those oil and gas companies who are robbing Iraq and cheating other Muslim countries from their oil and gas money.

In the case of Bangladesh, those oil companies like Shell; BP, British petroleum; Nico, Canada; and other US companies grabbed contracts over the Bangladeshi companies and cheating us by selling our gas and electricity from that at a higher price than the local price . And how did they got those contracts , High officials of those Christian democratic governments forced and gave money to our ministers ( who are now in jail, and confessed about this ) to award these contracts to these foreign companies, instead of local ones.
And few days back two of this companies for lack of care and proper safety, accidentally blew up two gas fields and damaging property of estimated 2 billion dollars. They did not gave any compensation for that and they said that they are unable to give, and yet they are being allowed to operate just because to fulfill the contracts. But it is true that every year they pay few thousand dollars to those missionaries in the name of charity but actually to promote Christianity. It is like cutting off one leg to replace it with a finger, yes this is the actual face of democracy or Christian democracy.

And another thing about human right and freedom, few month ago a dictatorial government of Bangladesh have passed a law stating that government official who is a political party member or any executive of the government can not issue any warrant or can not give the order to detain any crime suspect or order any interrogation , these can only be done by very high ranking officials of the security service under the justice department or the judge; if any proof of that crime is present.Else he must be released or bailed within 24 hours. And this law is applicable to every crime suspect.

Is not it amazing that in a poor , non-Christian country like Bangladesh is walking towards justice and human rights even under a non democratic government. While the democratic ( Christian ) governments of the western worlds are passing laws which can be used by any executive of their government to interrogate or detain any suspect for a very long time , even without any charge or proof against them.

ARGcomment: jzk khair Shyed. That was very valuable!!

Shyed Shahriar

As salamu alaicum, brothers
I forgot to mention one thing that, although in Bangladesh Muslims were colonized by Britain over the centuries and thousands of Christian missionaries tried to convert as many Muslims as they could by whatever means they had. (by bribing the poor with medical treatment, clothes, food, jobs etc but very few were converted.) . But largely this was an political movement to make the way possible for a permanent British rule. That is why the British officials openly documented the reason of Indian Mutiny is , the failure of the British rulers to Christianize the population of India.
( this ''Indian mutiny'' is a propaganda word of the British rulers, actually it was a revolution against the Christianization of India)
But it is true that We Muslims feel closer to the sincere Christians than to the Jews, or the idol worshippers and the atheists.
The Qur’an clearly says in Surah.5:v 82: “Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who are Muslims (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe; those who say: Lo! We are Christians. This is because there are among them priests and monks (i.e. persons entirely devoted to the service of God, as are the Muslims) and because they are not proud.”

And one of the very good quality of the schools in Bangladesh these priests, nuns and monks run is that they are single gender schools i.e. either boys school or girls school. This is very good, we totally appreciate this. Democratic or dictatorial governments of Bangladesh allows that without any problem.

But whenever some Muslims in Canada , U.S.A. , U.K. , Australia Wants to establish a (good school based on that country's syllabus) which are for boys only or girls only, then we have all kind of problem. They are called Barbaric , Medieval Madrasa; The local Christian people starts protesting, bulling, local authority starts investigation , even we have to go to the courts, and ultimately some of the schools can not start or continue, just because they don’t teach boys and girls in the same classroom.

HOW DEMOCRATIC IS THAT?

And forgive me bro AGR for double post on the same topic, Now i have figured out the problem, In sa- Allah this will not happen again in future. Hope that Allah will forgive us all.

ARGcomment: noooo problem, make it a triple or quadruple any time you feel like it!

Abdul

Well the CPA have been exposed check out this site

http://www.christianpeoplesalliance.com

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